Forum:Dealing with dates
:This thread was moved from Forum:Adminship since it was way off topic. -- Fandyllic (talk · ) 30 Oct 2012 12:54 PM Pacific Date The main purpose most contributors would agree is to be informative. We could all vague take guess at what year the characters were born, but that isn't helpful or the point of a wiki. If one reads the comment sections to articles like Robert's or Robert's father, other people have asked where these years come from and to date, it's just based on nothing but "it could be?" or "prove it isn't" Stating the year of birth for a character is an affirmative action that ought to be prove rather then the burden being on others have to disprove it. Why is Robert'''born in 1869? Here is the only time it's been explained when another user who wasn't me asked in the comment section, " Why can't it be right? It's perfectly fine; the dates fit and don't clash with anything. Robert born in 1869, and Cora in 1868 both fit." That flimsy at best and also isn't even close to "cannon information." Why is '''Roberta born in 1840 and there Violet couldn't have been born born 1841? Nowhere on the show is it state that Roberta is the elder sister nor why would she have (not just used to be assumed to be). We as the audience know that Roberta was alive in 1857 and that is enough to put on this wiki article. We have no real clue as to when Roberta was born and it's useless to speculate and make stuff up to put down a date that confuses more then inform. Susan Flintshire and the b. pre-1889 taken off. Pre-1889 isn't intended to make it look like she was born around 1889 though it's hard not to get that from it whether it's intended that way or not. The reason for having it there at all is so narrow. Cora appears to know who Susan is and therefore she must have been to Downton Abbey since she married Robert in 1889. Beyond the "appears to know" since anybody can know about people that they've never meet in the flesh yet that another tangent. What I dispute is that is this in any way helpful to somebody reading this page to know more about Susan. Susan and Cora could meet yearly in London during the months Cora spends there each year during the London season as would any English noble's wife. Also we don't put Ethel Park born pre-1916 or William Mason born pre-1912 since it's pointless. One is because we don't need to point out the obvious. If we are writing about Robert's cousin and things she is doing, there is no need to point out she is born before these events happened. Robert's father: Why is his first name Patrick? I'm not saying it isn't, but it ought have a source or something to back it up? User:HarryPotterRules states that it is sourced to the press notes for Series 1. I've looked and others have and it's nowhere to be found. There whole died 1898. Violet does tell Cora in Episode 1.01 that she ran Downton for thirty years. User:HPR says Violet's husband must have died in 1898 because that thirty years before he married Violet in 1868. There hasn't been anything offered to back that up beyond 1868 fits. Despite what User:HarryPotterRules has told me I've done, I don't dispute what Violet said. I maintain that we don't know when those thirty years happened. The 1868 wedding year is sourced beyond "it fits." There is also the mention that Violet makes that she got a wedding present that she has hated for half a century. Violet says that in January 1920 which if you take her literally would mean January 1870 which doesn't even fit into User:HPR's timeline even if one stretches it to a year within to be some point in 1871 or 1869. The thirty years after her wedding also ignores that Violet's husband could have married her first, then any number of years later inherited the Earldom and the estate. Solutions For the solutions, I would really, REALLY like others beyond myself and User:HarryPotterRules to chime in on what to actually do. I don't want to assume I know how User:HarryPotterRules will react, but based on the past, I will be to call me a liar and then have my intelligence insulted. So I'm putting it out to others as well as myself to see what they think of what should and shouldn't be on these specific articles. Roberta: Just keep the article to knowledge we in the audience. She is Mary, Edith and Sybil's great-aunt who Violet reminds them that she loaded the guns at the Siege of Lucknow. Susan: Rather then this born pre-1889 and visited between 1889 and 1912 stuff, just have Violet mentions that Susan must not have visited Downton Abbey in quite some time as she does not seem to realize how far the bachelors' corridor is from Mary's bedroom. Robert: Take off born 1869''since it's speculative and not based on anything put out by the show or can it be inferred as definite at this point. '''Rosamund': Take off born 1870 for same reason as Robert Violet and husband: Take down dates. Keep the mention of Lord Hepworth romantic pursuit of her in the late 1860's and hating that wedding present vase for over a half century (it's a funny line) and ran Downton for 30 years, but just keep it to that rather then leaps to inferring when she was born until more information comes from the show itself. Answer to "Solutions". Robert's birthdate: '''The 1869 for Robert is accurate. I'll explain why. In Series 1 Robert says "Anthony Strallan is AT LEAST my age, and as dull as paint." and in Series 3 he says Anthony is "half a century (25 years) to old" for Edith. This means that Anthony Strallan (and Robert, who says Anthony is AT LEAST his age) were both born in 1869. That is where his birthdate comes from. See? Two pieces of canon information behind his age. '''Susan Flintshire: This is what I mean - you have ignored canon information "Forgotten the distance between the bachelors corridor and the girls' rooms" and the fact that Cora knows her. Susan HAS to have been born before 1889, and have visited Downton at some time BETWEEN 1889 and 1913/1914. Cora knows her, correct? Yes, she mentions to Carson that Susan is Robert's cousin ("And you know that Lady Flintshire is his lordships cousin") meaning that they have met. Susan's visit must have been AFTER 1889, since Cora and Robert didn't marry until that date, and has to be before 1913/1914 since Susan has forgotten the size of Downton which she wouldn't have if the vist was recent. Again, canon information. Roberta: 'While not confirmed it is most likely, since Violet makes no mention of other siblings (she often uses her family or friends - e.g. Duchess of Norfolk, Roberta, that Irish noblewoman when Robert mentions why Tom was not killed and just not allowed to go back to Ireland - as example of why she's better), that Roberta is Susan's mother and Rose's grandmother. '''Rosamund: '''Given that Robert was born in 1869 (as I have proven above) and Violet, in 1919, says that she hated the vase for "half a century" places her wedding in 1869, meaning that Rosamund CANNOT be born before 1869 - as Violet and Patrick were not married - meaning she's younger than Robert - that's where 1870 comes from. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 18:14, October 28, 2012 (UTC) Solutions 2 "At least my age" is totally vague and User:HPR is inferring. "''While it's not confirmed, it's most likely" is not even close to cannon. It's after the New Year's Eve party when Matthew and Sir Richard break that vase so it isn't 1919, but 1920. Cora and Susan knowing each has nothing to do with ''where ''they meet let alone what year Susan was born in. This is just same vague and flimsy stuff I've been point out for months. But ''PLEASE'' let somebody who isn't User:HarryPotterRules (who has been making these points for months and willfully ignores anything that disproves them) chime in here.CestWhat (talk) 19:10, October 28, 2012 (UTC) ::It is true that Robert's father's name is not mentioned in the press packs or in episode; the only occurences of the name Patrick refers to James' son. ::As far as Robert, Cora, and Rosamund's ages, they've never been explictly stated as I recall. Also it's never been said as to whether Rosamund or Robert is older. I'm fairly certain that Cora's birth year could be pinned down to sometime in 1868, given that the Series 1 PP said they married in 1889 and they had met during her first season when she was 20, which would most likely have been the previous year, 1888. Of course the 1889 date given for the wedding seems to clash with Violet's statement in 1.01 - set in mid 1912 - that they had been married for 24 years. ::With Violet's comment in the CS, I think the date of her marriage could be tentatively suggested to be 1869 or 1870 - but it's not definite. Then there's the issue of Sybil's birth year. I think 1898 should be taken off her page; surely Robert's statements in both 1.07 and 3.05 intimate an 1896 date over the statement in 2.07 inferring an 1898 birth year. Dragonrider2 (talk) 19:32, October 28, 2012 (UTC) :::I give up. I've had enough. My last nerve and last shred of an ALREADY SMASHED AND DESTROYED PATIENCE, has finally gone. It's that bad now that I am actually considering leaving THIS wiki, setting up my OWN Downton Abbey Wiki and am considering directing people there instead. ''HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 20:14, October 28, 2012 (UTC)''' ::::Too bad. I doubt you will be able to work with anyone else at another Downton wiki, because you still have to collaborate. It's a wiki after all. ::::With your username, I'm not sure why you're not spending most of your time at Harry Potter related wikis. -- Fandyllic (talk · ) 30 Oct 2012 10:48 AM Pacific :::::When I set up my name I didn't know this wiki existed, that's why it it what it is. If I did set up my own wiki I'd be able to make it as it should be. I've said, after all, of course, that I would be nice to CestWhat if he/she apologised for something that he/she DID remove that shouldn't have been - something that I have now discussed with Seth Cooper, and we've agreed it should be IN the article, but without dates - since I have no apology, I will not be nice. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 05:10, October 31, 2012 (UTC) ::::::Having another contributor backing you up seems to not matter since I've discuss this before and others have agreed with me and User:HPR ignores it. If there was any majority opinion out of the Admin discussion, it was that User:HPR ought to calm down and listen to others and engage rather then doubling down on edits with justifying them. Demand apologizes and "boot kissings" and brag about how well threaten works isn't sourcing these guesses. What does bug a bit is when proven wrong by the show itself (i.e. when the dialogue is Episode 3.01 show that great-great-great grandfather was the 3rd Earl and not 2nd Earl as User:HPR had insisted), User:HPR lies what the character says and then states that the show is wrong. CestWhat (talk) 07:30, October 31, 2012 (UTC) F*** it. Don't ''EVER talk to me again.'' EVER''. You don't interfere with my edits, and I won't interfere with yours. That's the compromise. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 22:17, October 31, 2012 (UTC) : Pouting and shouting isn't going to let User:HPR1 get away with speculative edits. Some I get the logic. I've never disputed that Susan's mother could be Roberta. But it's speculative and needless in a reference style website.CestWhat (talk) 22:24, October 31, 2012 (UTC) : : Speculative, yes, but the ONLY evidence we have at the moment - Violet mentions NO other siblings: if she had any, she would have done by now. She mentioned Roberta, but no others, thus Roberta's her only sibling. : Now, I am going to set up my OWN Downton Abbey wiki. Turn up there, and I, as Admin, since I set it up, will block you. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 22:31, October 31, 2012 (UTC) Legal consent age Can we as a forum agree that "legal consent ages" isn't a source for tons of reasons (one, with a parents consent, you can get married or work younger, being key) CestWhat (talk) 22:39, January 7, 2013 (UTC) : Agreed. And also, until we know that Fellows chooses to follow real life laws we don't know that he wouldn't choose to ignore legal facts or bend them for the sake of artistic licence/storytelling. Downton is fiction after all. Bluebellanon (talk) 22:42, January 7, 2013 (UTC) ::Plus who cares if we can tell a characters age to within a decade and a half if that. One example being Violet being age 12 when she got married. Of course nobody watching would think that's true. So we are just misleading readers of this wiki. CestWhat (talk) 23:02, January 7, 2013 (UTC) : As you can see "The Marriage Act of 1753, made it illegal for those in England under the age of 21 to get married without the consent of their parents or guardians. (BIG IMPORTANT BIT! READ NOW!!!!!) However, the consent requirement was repealed and replaced in July 1822, therefore, from 1823 the age at which a couple could undergo a valid marriage, without parental consent, reverted to 14 for boys and 12 for girls." : This shows that the youngest Violet could have been was 12 at the time of her marriage; as she, in the 2012 Christmas Special, says that the first gillies ball she went to was at Balmoral "in 1860" we can state that her date of birth was, at the latest, 1848. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 23:04, January 7, 2013 (UTC) : You're ignoring me. : Your wall post. Go there. NOW! HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 23:04, January 7, 2013 (UTC)